Making boy stand for long periods a consequence for saying he was hungry, Ontario couple's murder trial told

Ontario's former baby counsel says children's assistance societies made 'bad decisions' leading up to dying of boy

Testimony in the trial for an Ontario couple charged in the death of one boy and what Crown prosecutors have alleged was the torture of his brother in their care continues today, with co-accused Becky Hamber in the witness box in Milton.

Crown prosecutors and defence lawyers have already spent four days questioning Hamber, 46, about the way she and wife Brandy Cooney treated the brothers in their care. Hamber has maintained she loved and did nothing to hurt the boys as they were going through the adoption process.

Hamber, 46, and Cooney, 44, have pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder of L.L., as well as not guilty to confinement, assault with a weapon — zip ties — and failing to provide the necessaries of life to J.L. The judge-alone trial, which began in mid-September, is before Justice Clayton Conlan in Milton Superior Court.

Hamber is also set to testify again on Friday, the last scheduled day for proceedings. Prosecutors and defence lawyers are expected to make their final arguments in March.

Warning: This post contains graphic details.

The conversation turns back to what the women say was L.L.'s frequent masturbation, according to the transcript.

Hamber tells Crown lawyer Frew she could tell when the boy was masturbating based on how he was moving in his bed, as seen on a security camera.

But in the transcript, L.L. Tells her and Cooney he’s actually touching that area because his bladder hurts so much as he was trying to hold his pee.

Hamber acknowledges that’s what he says, but his penis was red and chafed.

She admits to Frew that he was made to wear a jock strap "cup" at times and was zip-tied into a bathing suit.

Also in the transcript, Hamber tells L.L. He isn’t allowed to tell children’s aid workers he doesn’t get food.

She says he gets food, just not when he wants it "and that’s life."

Hamber also says to L.L. He "trashed" her and Cooney to neighbours by saying he was hungry.

Later in the conversation, L.L. Says he has accidents because he has to hold his pee and poo.

"Then you and your wife are talking over one another saying that’s simply not true," Frew says in court.

She asks how Hamber would know what L.L. Is physically feeling.

"I don’t know," Hamber says.

Throughout the trial, the Crown has drawn on text messages between Cooney and Hamber in which they’d insult the boys, call them names and disparage them.

Both women say they only spoke like that to one another as a way to vent their frustration.

Now, Hamber says she would call L.L. A "baby brat."

In the transcript of her conversation with him in 2021, Hamber tells the 11-year-old, "instead of adding value to all of our lives, you’re subtracting value from everyone."

Hamber tells Frew she shouldn’t have said that but that she was a "frustrated parent."

The Crown is reading from a transcript of a recorded conversation between Hamber and L.L. From December 2021, when he was very thin. 

Hamber tells him he’s ungrateful because he pees or poos himself, and then expects her to clean his clothes and give him a shower without thanking her. 

"Why are you standing in your room all day long?" Hamber asks him.

"Because I’m saying I’m hungry," L.L. Says. 

Standing was a "consequence," Hamber tells the court. She says if he was fidgeting, stretching, playing with his hair or talking — including asking for food — he’d stand for longer. 

"How is he supposed to tell you he’s hungry if he can’t talk?" Frew asks. 

"Put your hand up," Hamber responds.

Warning: This post contains graphic details.

We are hearing now about how L.L. Would tell Hamber he’s having accidents "because it hurts."

Hamber says it was painful for L.L. To pee because of his "excessive" masturbation, which also caused him to have trouble controlling his bladder.

Frew asks where she got this information from.

Hamber says men in her past had told her they had issues holding their urine after sex.

L.L.'s basement bedroom had a small window that was covered by a piece of fabric patterned with pictures of chocolate bars, the court hears.

Frew asks Hamber why they would choose that fabric if L.L. Had a "raging eating disorder," wanted to binge eat "24/7" and regurgitated his food, as the woman told the Children's Aid Society and doctors.

"It was what we had at the time," Hamber tells the Crown lawyer.

"You don’t think it was cruel?" Frew asks.

"It was child friendly in my opinion," Hamber responds.

The court is now in a morning break. Proceedings will resume around 11:10 a.m. ET.

Justice Clayton Conlan interjects to ask Hamber why the boys weren’t in school in 2022.

The women had only let the brothers go to school part time in early 2020 and then didn’t participate in virtual learning when the pandemic began that March.

After that, Hamber and Cooney were presumably homeschooling them, the court has heard. J.L. Previously testified that by 2022, they weren’t getting any schooling.

Hamber tells the judge they were looking for schools that could take care of the boys' needs and they opted to keep them home in the meantime to focus on therapy. The women were looking at both private and public schools.

The Crown questions whether the couple had done any research before L.L. Died of what schools in the area had to offer.

"We had a general idea," says Hamber.

Hamber says the boys were allowed to leave their rooms when they wanted "if they were compliant and jovial."

Frew asks how often L.L. Would be allowed to do that in 2022.

"It was rare," Hamber says.

She says he required supervision because he would "take toys and try to break them and weaponize them."

The boys were in their bedrooms for the "vast majority of the day" in 2022, says Frew.

Often they were restrained, the Crown says.

Hamber disagrees and says she doesn’t consider zip tying the boys into their wetsuits, or locking them in their rooms as "restraints."

Frew says L.L. Wasn’t allowed outside in 2022, which Hamber also says isn't true.

The court previously heard outdoor time appeared to be restricted. In the spring of 2022, J.L. Told a Halton Children's Aid Society worker he hadn’t been outside for a couple of weeks because he’d tried to run away, according to the worker's notes.

Hamber tells Frew that in the morning, she’d get up and shower, and then let the boys out of their room to use the washroom.

She’d lock them back in with activities and breakfast or snacks until Cooney got home from work in the afternoon.

But Frew argues she would not let the boys out until mid-afternoon to use the bathroom or eat.

That would mean they weren’t given food for about 18 hours, the Crown alleges.

In May 2022 texts between Hamber, Cooney and Cooney’s father Ed — who lived with them — the women directed Ed to wake up L.L. To walk up and down the stairs as exercise.

The time was 1 p.m.

The Crown says the women would not let the children know the time.

Hamber says the main reason was because if the women had to delay the boys' meals, due to a tantrum for example, and L.L. Saw what time it was, he’d get upset again.

"L.L. Wanted food any time," Hamber says.

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